Is chivalry dead? Would you prefer it to be?

Normally I would let this sort of thing pass and just forget about it. However, I'm actually feeling rather annoyed.

Cycling home from work this afternoon, I noticed a woman (approx. mid 30s) struggling with a door and several things she was trying to get through it inc. some sort of large suitcase, which was nearly as big as her. Spotting her from a couple of hundred yards away I decided to stop and help, seeing as nobody appeared to be too bothered. Only when I asked if she would like some assistance, offering at least to take the case; in high dudgeon she launched into a bit of tyrade about how she doesn't need help from any man. After asking if she was sure, she accused me of being anti-feminist and thusly told to me to "piss off". My motives were pure: she was struggling — I thought I could assist. Her statement leads me to believe that if a woman had offered, it would have been acceptable.

What do you think? Have I missed something? Is it so wrong to want to help somebody, or should one not bother unless they ask? Is it just me? Is the notion of gallantry really dead?

My parents were old fashioned people. My father was a true gentleman and my mother would still be appalled if I hadn't stopped. Certainly if she had been with me, she would have made me do so regardless of my own opinions. I was raised to be or at least act like a gentleman. It has long been unfashionable to behave in this manner, but I can't help it. It is fundamental to 'me'.

Oh wow Mr Socks, that's so rude. I always like it if someone offers to help, I usually do say 'No thank you' and it's not because I don't appricate it, but because I don't like to put people out.

My OH is very accomodating for me though when hes here, pulls out the chair, opens the door ect. I think it's lovely and a very sexy quality for a man to have.

Its sad .....I would always offer to help but then I would help a guy whio is strugling with something. I often help ladies in Airports and rail stations with baby buggies.....no women has ever refused or turned "feminist" on me....when you see all the stuff you need to carry with a baby I suppose its "needs must".

I wish women with that frame of mind would understand it is to belittle them , more to show respect for them, as a man I dont like to see women struggling with heavy weights. My mother was a cleaner and very strong but she would always graciously accept a mans help, it cements the two genders roles in society (I believe).

Working in China used to drive me nutz......my female translator INSISTED on carrying my stuff even though she was about 6 stone wringing wet....a real clash of cultures. I used to feel positively embarrassed but she was adamant I was her boss so she must carry everything. I never got used to that.

FrozenAngel wrote:

Oh wow Mr Socks, that's so rude. I always like it if someone offers to help, I usually do say 'No thank you' and it's not because I don't appricate it, but because I don't like to put people out.

FA next time accept the offer...you gget some help and he feels good about himself ...win/win

Thanks Gunter, I didn't see it that way. I'm in no way a feminist, and for a woman I am very strong. I just feel like I'm putting someone out. So I've always very politley declined.

I love chivalry! It's always appreciated as far as I'm concerned. Sure, there may be times when I don't want or need help, in which case I would politely decline. For example, I always refuse assistance to put a heavy suitcase on a train's overhead compartment but that's mostly practical because I'd have to ask someone to get it back down again later!

In many situations I'd happily accept too, especially in the situation described here. I don't think it should be phased out at all.

As far as I'm concerned that woman was ungrateful and rude. Of course she's well within her rights to decline and keep struggling if she so desires (I'm sure we've all been too proud to accept help at some time or other!) but she really didn't need to rant about it.

The world being what it is, we need more people who are willing to help others, not less. The saddest thing would be if impolite refusals like this woman gave put people off from helping someone who genuinely needs it.

To me equality means equal respect opportunity and rights...It doesnt mean men and women are the same, as I said if a guy is struggling with something I would offer to help, nothin to do with gender its called manners and being civil.

my wife works in a University she says that in general more young women are becoming more "butch" and more young men effeminate. This seems to bear that out....what a world we live in.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/drivers-twitter-boast-hitting-cyclist-115031323.html#UzDhby6

There are those of us out there who still appreciate chivalrous men.

Oh wow thats very rude when im offered help if i dont need it i find a no thanks im fine to do

Maybe you caught her at a bad time but that is still no excuse for being rude

That is a disgusting way to behave and I am very sorry that you had this experience. I don't think it's got anything to do with chivalry, it's about being a decent human being. I'm a woman and I will help anyone, male of female if I notice they need it and I have the time, even on the road e.g. letting someone out/in in traffic. Frankly it p*sses me off on an almost daily basis that more people don't do the same for me. Long Live Chivalry and generally trying not to be a self absorbed t*sser.

I too love chivalry, but I also love good manners. As I was always told maners don't cost anything and politeness should be mandatory.
I would offer to help anyone who I thought was struggling and I'd consider it kind and polite for someone to offer to help me wheather male or female.
I was very impressed with the kindness of strangers last week when I was in London. Twice I saw people helping a lady with a pushchair up the stairs of the tube stn, and I saw a lady at a bus stop drop her handbag and the contents of her bag fell out and 3 men quickly picked up the things and handed them back to her.
See there are kind and decent people out there, you just happened to find one of the minority who are unkind, cold and vicious.

I dont offer to help women anymore, I've been yelled at too much.

I'll help if asked, and I offer if a guys stuck, but sadly ladies, youre on your own

Poor you Mr Socks! That woman sounds very rude and must have been brought up wrong. I love chivalry and think the world will be a better place if people accepted and gave help freely. Random acts of kindness are so hard to come by nowadays!

Oh dear, maybe she was just having a bad day. I think everything that you hear in the news and the good old "stranger danger" that's imbedded in our minds makes us feel suspicious rather than flattered when someone offers us help.

I might have smiled and said "no thank you" if I really didn't want your help but definitely wouldn't snap your head off!

I love it when a guy is a gentleman. I go to a lot of army dos with my boyfriend where they're all very gentlemanly and it's lovely, but I still can't get used to the fact that you have to wait for them to pull your chair back for you I always just do it myself!

I am wary of chivalry and have a knee jerk reaction to guys who say they are chivalrous. Why? Because I am now in my thirties and have witnessed first hand a number of guys who seem to "use" chivalry as a way to get into your pants. (Then develop the nice guy complex when you rebuke them.)

I know people here will assume its a feminist way of thinking but I disagree. I support womens and mens rights equally and I am straight. I like men lol. There are just as many assholes on each side of the gender fence but I do question chivalry...like....Why run around to open a car door for a woman but not for your guy mates? Clearly women can open car doors just as well as men...and before you shout out "Its chivlarous...its a nice thing to do", why don't you do exactly the same for your guy mates then? (Genuine question, not a scathing remark) I also assume that if a guy ran around to open a car door for his guy friend, the guy friend would probably say something too (In this day and age I imagine the comment from the guy friend would be something scathing or awkward. Its just not the "done thing" with your guy mates so of course this is why chivalry, in my opinion, can often seem like an effort to win a lady over or get in her pants.

See maybe I am just blinded by the men that I have met in the past who used this utter crap on me. The very same ones who turned out to be the most selfish or sulky people when their efforts didnt get reciprocated. They seriously developed this "I am so nice so why am I not getting everything my own way" issue. The guys that I have seen being "chivalrous" only seem to extend to the girl he is after and not balancing this apparant chivalrous nature out to encompass all people around him, not just the girls he wants to bone.

I dont even like the word chivalry. Mainly because it feels a bit patronising. When you think chivalry you think "men coming to the aid of women" I like genuine people genuinely helping others based on nothing but seeing a fellow human (male or female) struggling, If I was struggling and a male or female came to help me I would be grateful and thank them politely but chivalry as a concept just irks me. I think its fake, something designed to try and get the girl, and once the girl is got, this chivalry business stops. I can't count the amount of times I have experienced the love poems and the car doors being opened and the massages and the carrying of my bags, jumping up to pull out my chair all of this jazz, only to watch it fade away in time because essentially we are human beings and we cant keep up an act forever. I have not met one guy yet who started out being chivalrous in these ways, only to stop bothering after we got together. If you knew how many guys would offer to help me with things in my lifetime, only to suddenly lose interest in helping if I got a boyfriend. Suddenly these guys, these "friends" are not around any more. It really begs the question....whct the hell is chivalry anyway? I believe chivalry is an act, and that genuine kindness to other human beings is genuine. I do not think I have ever seen a chivalrous guy jump up and pull out a ladies chair when shes with a bloke....

The thing is I also feel that chivalry also paves the way to the nice guy complex which also makes me feel like chivalry is used as a tool for manipulation.

Before you all hack me to death: I believe there is a difference between genuinely nice helpful people and this chivalry malarky and it sounds to me like the OP was being genuinely helpful to another human and got his ass handed to him by someone who wasnt a nice person. I aint accusing every man of only being nice for one thing but I do wonder why guys cannot understand why women distrust chivalry. I am sure women all around have many experiences like I mention above with guys who ARE just trying to shag us. Surely you must understand then, why some women do not trust it?. I just personally have a very bad taste in my mouth when it comes to chivalry.

I really would rather no one was chivalrous with me and just acted like a kind human being and acted the way they would with anyone. You know?

IMO chivalry is bullocks :P

Ok guys, you can rip me to shreds now lol.... :P

Also.... Women are feminists if they do not like something you personally like, or if they do not have the same standards as you? To me, this is like calling a woman a slut because shes slept with more men than your comfortable with or calling her fat because shes larger than the women you fancy or calling her a lesbian because she wont shag you....etc etc and so on. If the tables were turned you'd be like woahhhh wait a minute. I think men and women deserve to be equally respected and if a woman does not like chivalry, or doesnt want you to carry her bags...then respect that and don't jump straight to "Feminazi". If a woman offered to carry your bags and you said "no" does that make you a woman hater? :S

As a guy, I will certainly hold open the door and offer to pick up any heavy objects that require lifting. If a woman's going to have a proto-feminist rant about my offer, fair enough - I'll make a note to avoid that woman on future occasions. But as for just generally being polite and offering a hand when I can - why wouldn't I?

I don't think that chivalry's dead, but I do think that people are far more reluctant to interact with a stranger for any reason these days, for some perfectly justifiable reasons. I'll still offer to help out where I can, but I know not to be surprised if I end up with an angry female after!

Also, my OH is a big fan of chivalry, and indeed would appreciate guys to hold doors, get things off the top shelf, etc. And I'm happy with that :)

As for feminism....it's a messy subject. There's so many 'grades' of feminism that the world has all but lost it's meaning.

S&S wrote:

As a guy, I will certainly hold open the door and offer to pick up any heavy objects that require lifting. If a woman's going to have a proto-feminist rant about my offer, fair enough - I'll make a note to avoid that woman on future occasions. But as for just generally being polite and offering a hand when I can - why wouldn't I?

I don't think that chivalry's dead, but I do think that people are far more reluctant to interact with a stranger for any reason these days, for some perfectly justifiable reasons. I'll still offer to help out where I can, but I know not to be surprised if I end up with an angry female after!

Also, my OH is a big fan of chivalry, and indeed would appreciate guys to hold doors, get things off the top shelf, etc. And I'm happy with that :)

As for feminism....it's a messy subject. There's so many 'grades' of feminism that the world has all but lost it's meaning.

I do think an angry rant is out of order. If someone offered to help me and I didn't want help, a simple "No thanks I am fine" would do. To get screamed at seems a bit extreme for sure.

Interesting points, Fluffbags. I love the modern concept of chivalry, as I've said. Then again, nobody ever tries to get in my pants as it were so I don't find it an issue in that respect. (I almost wish it was!) I do agree (as it seems many of us do) that it shouldn't only ever be a gendered thing, I'm very much a feminist but for me this is one thing where I don't mind being differentiated. Equal but different is the key here!

I think this would be a good time to point out that chivalry was originally a military concept specifically related to medieval knighthood and concerned masculine behaviours related to knighthood and warfare, but with the birth of medieval Romance literature the meaning changed to include the code of conduct expected of a knight in courtly life, especially in relation to his lady. In modern society the meaning has solely become about male-female interaction.

The gender boundaries have blurred a lot (fortunately) compared to medieval times. Romance literature didn't reflect the reality of medieval lives, in which women legally had very little power, so romance literature theoretically gave them a little more control that they did in real life (though of course the romances were still set in phallocentric societies and the focus is usually on the knights rather than their ladies!) So I guess we don't need chivalry quite as much as they might have in the medieval era but I definitely think we should hang onto it for the sake of those who do appreciate it, and for those occasions when someone does need help regardless of their sex.

Ok sorry I went off on one there! This is the kind of stuff I've been involved with for academic purposes since Romance literature is a key part of the Arthurian literary canon so I figured I might as well add something about the origins of chivalry!

Chivalry and derogatory sexism are two completely different things really. Frankly I love someone being 'gallant' (really just kind and courteous) and as someone who deals with a fair bit of invisible pain quite frequently it genuinely helps, especially if I am with a buggy/ toddler and shopping and dreading the walk up the giant hill on which we live (there is a reason for the 'Dun' in the name!!). An angry rant is way out of order but when angry rants are directed my way I try to regard them in the wider context of being a tiny interaction in someone's life, quite probably not the being the sole cause of stress that day and more likely to be due to a combination of factors. You mentioned a large suitcase, chances are she'd had a rough journey or missed her train/ bus/ was late for pick up. Try not to take it too personally. She may also have been groped, talked down to or heaily patronised earlier in the day and you were the easiest target for 'reinforcing' her false helplessness in an annoyingly public place. Not all feminists are angry and militant. Honest.

Chivalry ain't dead, but it seems to have gone into hiding a bit recently, largely due I think to men not wanting to offend women by kindness. Also, not every man wants to get into your pants, nor would the majority view holding a door or offering a hand as a 'way in', men are people too and generally save the sex-fiend-within for their missus (or mr) at home.