Firstly, this is in no way meant to be offensive to anyone. I believe people should be who or what they are most comfortable being. I am in no way against trans-gender or transsexual persons. I did a search and nothing seemed to pop up that would answer my question.
My question is body shapes, with some shemales, you really wouldn't know by looking at them dressed that they are actually shemales. Biologically, males and females have very different body shapes designed for very different purposes. When a male becomes a shemale, their body shape wouldn't change, they may have breast surgery though.
Some shemales have what you would typically call a female body, small waist, bigger hips, the typical hourglass figure. Take Mia Isabella for example, she has a 23inch waist and 34 inch hips. She also has toned legs but not muscular, such that you would find on a woman.
How is it biologically possible for some shemales to have the same body shapes as women?
As I said, this is in no way meant to be offensive to anyone, I am very sorry if it is, that is not my intention.
Everyone has a different body shapes. For example, while men tend to have less defined hips, it isn't always the case. The process of transitioning also helps to change body shape, especially with hormone treatments, as the amount of estrogen in the body changes where the body stores fat and therefore the shape of certain parts! Equally, male hormones in combination with specific exercise help make a body more muscular or toned in certain areas. (Just look at Buck Angel, the FTM porn star who looks exceptionally buff!) Yes, surgery is sometimes involved - for example, some MTF have the lower rib removed to make a more womanly torso shape if they feel that's right for them.
I think the hormonal treatment plays a huge part in it. It can potentially make a bit of change. Also everyone does have different body shape and different bone structure. You know, as an archaeologist, I studied bones and sexing using bones. And most features are just on scale female - likely female - neutral- likely male - male and yes, a guy can have some feature looking pretty female. Pelvis is good for sexing, but even that can sometimes look like something in the middle. Its not 100% accurate, but its above 95%. Maybe people who have more female looking skeleton would pass better as females after the transition?
I'm not a biologist but I believe it's the hormone balance during fetal development that determines body shape. The basic fetal body shape is actually female but it is the relative amounts of testosterone and oestrogen that determines the final body shape. For example, testesterone causes the ovaries to descend and transform into male testis. Admittedly, the hormone balance should be determined genetically but there can be congenital defects.
Incidentally, men produce oestrogen and woman produce testesterone even when adults.
I dont think bones are really influenced, but just some guys do have wider, more female hips, while some females have more male hip bones. And some men have more female skull bone structure and some female more male... And 34 inches is not really that wide round hips.
Thanks for your replies everyone.
I didn't mean that 34inch hips were wide, I meant the difference between a 23inch waist and 34inch hips. A typical hourglass figure, unusual for a male.
Also, she doesn't look unhealthy skinny and doesn't have much excess fat, so the body shape is natural.
I was just thinking it is unusual for a male to have a body shape like that.
Speaking as a person with trans issues, I'd first like to say as nicely as possible that most TS/TV/TG people find the word shemale rather insulting. Most feel that the word conjures up a sort of porn version of the TV/TG/TS experience.
That said your question is perfectly valid and one that TG people often struggle with.
Very very generally speaking men tend to have shoulders that are wider than their hips and less of a pronounced waist. To make themselves passable some TG people wear padding on their hips. It's possible to buy corsetry with insertable padding and some have the resources to have this made to measure. Another option is surgery and many of the "shemales" you see in porn movies will have had silicone pads inserted in their buttocks. According to one report I've seen some of the Brazilians who have had this done may have up to 10 pounds of silicon in their bodies.
It's also possible to alter your contours by removing fat from one area (think lipo-suction) and have it injected in your bottom. This is apparently moderately long lasting, although it's not very successful for breasts. You will also notice that "shemale" actresses often have rather unnatural looking breasts.
Furthermore taking feminizing hormones does alter your body shape. Depending on your genetic heritage you may develop breasts and fat tends to move away from the midriff to the hips. The skin thins and softens and TS people have to worry about osteoporosis. It's important to be supervised by an endocrinologist because all sorts of organs may be affected, particularly the kidneys and the liver.
Finally if a person starts to take feminizing hormones before puberty has taken hold (or if puberty is held back a few years) the person concerned has more of a chance of developing a convincing feminine shape. However, early transition is still controversial.
Hope this helps
atlanta wrote:
Speaking as a person with trans issues, I'd first like to say as nicely as possible that most TS/TV/TG people find the word shemale rather insulting. Most feel that the word conjures up a sort of porn version of the TV/TG/TS experience.
That said your question is perfectly valid and one that TG people often struggle with.
Very very generally speaking men tend to have shoulders that are wider than their hips and less of a pronounced waist. To make themselves passable some TG people wear padding on their hips. It's possible to buy corsetry with insertable padding and some have the resources to have this made to measure. Another option is surgery and many of the "shemales" you see in porn movies will have had silicone pads inserted in their buttocks. According to one report I've seen some of the Brazilians who have had this done may have up to 10 pounds of silicon in their bodies.
It's also possible to alter your contours by removing fat from one area (think lipo-suction) and have it injected in your bottom. This is apparently moderately long lasting, although it's not very successful for breasts. You will also notice that "shemale" actresses often have rather unnatural looking breasts.
Furthermore taking feminizing hormones does alter your body shape. Depending on your genetic heritage you may develop breasts and fat tends to move away from the midriff to the hips. The skin thins and softens and TS people have to worry about osteoporosis. It's important to be supervised by an endocrinologist because all sorts of organs may be affected, particularly the kidneys and the liver.
Finally if a person starts to take feminizing hormones before puberty has taken hold (or if puberty is held back a few years) the person concerned has more of a chance of developing a convincing feminine shape. However, early transition is still controversial.
Hope this helps
Well said, atlanta. Yes I was going to say padding and corsetry, I've looked at some of the items used before with my sister. She personally doesn't like her female shape so tends to buy things to reduce her bust and other areas, so even though she wasn't looking for the corsets and padding we still came across some.
I also feel that muscle development counts partly towards it. My sister said to me once that there are certain exercises that can either strengthen or reduce the throat muscles and help form a adams apple? though iof course this is a different forum of gender transition.
TS/TV/TG is something I would like to gain a better understanding of, but personally I can find it hard to understand as well as someone like my sister or friends who are actually experiencing it. Though I understand how hard it can be, espicially when my sister applied for jobs and other social aspects such as dating, it was very differicult on her.
Hi Nymph (if I can call you that). Adam's apples are of course a dead give away for the trans woman (i.e. M2F). There's a procedure called tracheal shaving which can mask it. I'm not very well informed about F2M so I wonder if there is a procedure that could give you an adam's apple. As it's not an essential marker of a male, I wouldn't worry about it too much. There are products that can do a pretty good job of flattening the bosom. One is sold under the Danae brand. You can also look for "packing" dildoes. These can be placed in the underwear and give the impression that there's some male equipment down there.
I hope your sister has signed up for some of the transgender forums/groups, where she might be able to find out more and get some moral support. xxx A.B.
So where exactly would you get these female hormones Im assuming you cant get them on the NHS.
Yes you can get them on the NHS, after you jump through all the hoops that convince them to let you have them. You can also get them privately ofc.
You can also get them privately, and if they are in injection form, have an HNS practitioner administer them for you if you don't wish to inject yourself. You do get patches and creams aswell though, but I believe the injection is meant to be more reliable dose wise.
atlanta wrote:
Hi Nymph (if I can call you that). Adam's apples are of course a dead give away for the trans woman (i.e. M2F). There's a procedure called tracheal shaving which can mask it. I'm not very well informed about F2M so I wonder if there is a procedure that could give you an adam's apple. As it's not an essential marker of a male, I wouldn't worry about it too much. There are products that can do a pretty good job of flattening the bosom. One is sold under the Danae brand. You can also look for "packing" dildoes. These can be placed in the underwear and give the impression that there's some male equipment down there.
I hope your sister has signed up for some of the transgender forums/groups, where she might be able to find out more and get some moral support. xxx A.B.
Yes you are welcome to call me Nymph, she is involved with some groups and I think she's finally found a place and partner that make her happy. I think I might be going with her to a Pride event later in the month, though partly depends on my money. Thanks for your post :)
Pixieking wrote:
Yes you can get them on the NHS, after you jump through all the hoops that convince them to let you have them. You can also get them privately ofc.
You can also get them privately, and if they are in injection form, have an HNS practitioner administer them for you if you don't wish to inject yourself. You do get patches and creams aswell though, but I believe the injection is meant to be more reliable dose wise.
So what exactly are these hoops I mean if they ask you to prove it sounds easy enough. Also what sort of price are we talking as far as the private go'es.
Finally if I did get the hormones and probably counselling from the NHS do they also do the whole surgery? I can understand why they would not so if they dont how much would it cost privately to get the main? operation
I'm not an expert on this by any means, so I'm not going to give any information I believe may be wrong. I learned most of what I know from an LGBT youth forum I was on for years and had a very active trans community.
The first step towards getting hormones (If that is what you wish) is to make an appointment with your GP, outline that you are transgender and wish to be refered to a Gender Identity Clinic. The length of time that referal takes can be months, and you usually need to also go through some sort of therapy to work out if you have any mental health problems. From there you go through the system. I believe it can take between months and years to get onto hormones but really, again, I am no expert. I believe they usually also tend towards expecting you to change your birth name before they consider you ready.
Transition can be a very long, tough and painful road, and sometimes it isn't made any easier by the system. Going private can be quicker, but you still need to go through their systems.
Price wise, I have no idea. Trans folk who start hormones typically take them for the rest of their lives in order to sustain the effects. They are by no means a one off treatment. It's like taking medication for a medical problem, and if you stop taking them, it can cause unwanted problems and perhaps reversion of effects.
For surgery, i'm just going to give a quote from the above forum.
This is the part where it gets confusing. Different GICs generally have different policy regarding when surgery can take place. For FTMs, top surgery is usually not offered until the individual is around 6 months on testosterone, at a minimum, and usually a year being full time is also required. For MTFs, top surgery is generally not offered but after about 2 years you can be referred for genital surgery, but can be anything from 1-5 years. Considering appointments are usually at 3 or 6 monthly intervals, it is likely by the third appointment you may have reached this criteria. For genital surgery, 2 years full time is usually required. So it is likely that any surgery will be a year or more from when you first see a GIC, if you see them for the whole of your transition.
Once a GIC has approved you for surgery, the PCT will have to provide funding, and then you will have to wait for an appointment with a surgeon. Again, waiting time for this is variable, but it is likely to be a number of months before you get to the point of having a surgery date scheduled.
crag630 wrote:
So where exactly would you get these female hormones Im assuming you cant get them on the NHS.
You can get mones on the NHS if you are prescribed them. You usually have to undergo some sort of psychological evaluation before you can get them. Mones should not be taken lightly and should only be taken under expert supervision. They have both physical and psychological effects.
Breast surgery is almost impossible to obtain on the NHS. A recent court ruling confirmed this policy.
Some people go to places like Thailand (which has a good reputation) for their surgery. But even there you will have to undergo some measure of evaluation before they will operate.
You can buy so-called hormones via the internet. But you don't know what you are getting and it can be really dangerous.
Wilkibo wrote:
"I'm not a biologist but I believe it's the hormone balance during fetal development that determines body shape. The basic fetal body shape is actually female but it is the relative amounts of testosterone and oestrogen that determines the final body shape. "
Untrue. The chromosomes that you get from both parents make you biologically male or female: if you get XY you're male, XX you're female (broadly speaking of course; naturally, as you gow you may not identify with the gender you were assigned at birth,, and some people are born with different arrangements such as being XXY, but that is a long and very complicated discussion for another day!). The idea that all embryos are female is a fallacy. Hormones do effect the development of the foetus, though in subtler ways than making it male/female.
Also - the adam's apple issue. This is ALSO a fallacy. Some men don't have them, and some women do. Yes, more men than women have them, but we humans are a very diverse lot! Some trans people choose to have an operation if theirs is especially notceable and they feel concious about it, but many do not.
I did alot of research in this area quite some time ago due to having a very feminine side to me i explored the option of going TV. Yet my body shape does not promote this very well and what research i did find is there are many hormone related products that can change this, yet its always best to discuss this with your doctor because as another poster put some of these out there are quite dangerous.
Tvchix website has a full time doctor on hand who is always there to answer questions and this was very helpful for me but i decided to stay a crossdresser even though iam still confused sexually my wife is fantastic and we explore this together which is great.
It is generally accepted, Lysistrata, that the basic body shape is female: this is why men have nipples and why there is an artery extending from the rear abdominal wall to the testes. You are right in the majority of cases that it is the Y chromosome that determines body shape because that affects the fetal hormonal balance. However there have been authenticated cases of biological women being genetically XY and of course there are hemaphrodites.
I don't know why you brought up the matter of Adam's apples since I never mentioned them but again it is the hormonal balance (in mosts cases determined genetically) that determines their prominence.