A concern about sexual violence / BDSM possible influence

Sex Tips & Talk
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So, Friday night and a couple of glasses of wine and a curry - we had a wild time yesterday so today I'm going to raise something more serious which has been on my mind...

Anyone following the news will have seen the case in New Zealand where a man was sentenced for murder after strangling a young woman on a casual date.

Aparently, in the UK, the claim of 'rough sex gone wrong' is increasing as a defence in cases where women are murdered.

This bothers me. Lovehoney and lots of other online shops and forums promote bondage as a positive thing between couples - but only really since the 50 Shades books became popular - before that it was more taboo.

I'm all for breaking through restictive taboos and I'm all for consenual sexual freedom and equality as long as partners are happy - as I know Lovehoney and members of this forum are too. But we tend to be a well nformed and - maybe - an older and more experienced demographic.

My concern is that things of this nature have become expected, mainstream, even on first encounters. Even anal sex requires some knowledge and prep - essential for young gay men - and they can't trust porn to give a helpful guide. I don't think this culture helps young people or some adults to form trusting relationships.

I worry for my kids as well as women in general who date casually - how does anyone (especially young people) know what is expected, what is prescribed, what is erotic, normal, or a no-go, how to recognise 'yes/no' consent once they are already in bed with someone... I don't know that parents are the people they will turn to for advice - it has to be a societal thing.

It's no good just churning out the moral line 'don't be promiscuous' like my parents did - not relevant today. And it is no good victim blaming - women hooking up with men for a night of fun does not excuse male violence.

Of course, sexual violence has always been an issue and it not always male/female. I just worry about the normalisation of BDSM as a factor in this. The New Zealand case really shocked me and made me realise how common a defence for murder this is becoming.

Is it just me or do others have concerns? If so, as an experienced group of people, what insights might we offer?

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I think there's a huge emphasis on consent now, much more than ever before. All these things can be fun, but only if you want to do it. Knowing you have the absolute right to say 'no' at any point, and knowing exactly how to handle those situations if and when they arise, is definitely the way forward.

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I hear you, Mrs R.

My wife and I have some concerns over E.L, James' writings, as we feel there's some blurring of boundaries. If Fifty Shades is the only contact people have with the emotional & social aspects of BDSM, it's easy to imagine how some could misunderstand vital aspects of this form of sexual expression.

Okay, okay, it's fiction and artistic license applies, but Fifty Shades doesn't really show casual readers/ viewers the full story. It really glosses over some of the vitally important preparation aspects of safe, consensual BDSM, namely the prior communication, setting of boundaries, and use of safewords and signals. Aftercare is a vital part too and is sometimes missing or given less prominence.

There is a serious power imbalance problem as well. Christian Grey is a billionaire, and has access to resources, not remotely available to Anastasia. He exerts some controlling influence in Anastasia's life outside of their play space. Some might view theirs as an abusive relationship at certain points in the series.

I do however credit most people with the good sense to separate fact from fiction. These books are a fun read for so many people.

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I think a part of the problem as you describe it, may come from a deep frustration some people can have when reality doesn't live up to fantasy. I hear a lot about 'incels' (involuntary celibates) in a society where rejection of a whole person is often a simple swipe of a picture on a dating app. I don't in any way excuse or condone sexual assault. Just saying some people spend way more time watching porn than talking to members of the opposite sex and this can warp their world view.

I guess my suggestion is to be aware of the distorting influence of fantasies, screen media and social networks. To help our children and others to understand these where schooling or other education has gaps, and to combat negative effects they can sometimes have. I too think it's also really important to understand consent and respect.

On the upside, I feel access to sex-positive information has never been better. Lovehoney for one, do a brilliant job of demystifying and educating interested and curious customers about the etiquette and important safety aspects of BDSM play.

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I would not look to tar everyone with the same brush, based on the shocking and distressing cases such as that in New Zealand. BDSM is a life choice of the indviduals concerned and can be enjoyed if conducted in a respectful, consenting way. If both parties agree the rules and abide by them then it can be an enjoyable addition to individuals sex lives.

The problem is when one party comes with other issues, and is not cognizent of the boundaries and respect of the other individual, but are in it for themselves and what they can get out of it. then it is not a loving action carried out by two consenting individuals it is about power and domination, which is a completely different proposition.

I guess in the end it is like most things, it is the ability to separate fact from fiction, BDSM in porn films is not the same as in real life.

And as Knottydevil, says it is about us all educating ourselves and others, to know what is acceptable and what is not. The key words are consent and respect.

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Knottydevil wrote:

Okay, okay, it's fiction and artistic license applies, but Fifty Shades doesn't really show casual readers/ viewers the full story. It really glosses over some of the vitally important preparation aspects of safe, consensual BDSM, namely the prior communication, setting of boundaries, and use of safewords and signals. Aftercare is a vital part too and is sometimes missing or given less prominence.

While I agree with the general concerns in these posts I feel that I cannot agree with this particular comment.

The book makes it clear that the process must be entirely consensual to the extent that a written contract is prepared in advance with the opportunity for Anastasia to set her own boundaries and to delete any sections she is not comfortable with. It also emphasises that a safe word must be chosen and explains cleary what the effect of the safe word will be. The issue of the contract is also raised a number of times throughout the book.

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Ok. Fair comment Rockstar. My point was that this was brief, and given less emphasis than I feel it deserves, I guess. Thanks for picking up on this. Shoulda chosen my words more carefully😊

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The Grace Millane court case was terribly upsetting. Her poor parents having to listen to their daughter's sexual preferences being given as if they are some sort of mitigating circumstances for that man strangling her. Sadly, I feel the prevelance of the 'rough sex as a defence' is just the modern interpretation of 'she was asking for it' relating to the choices made (usually clothing or behaviour being the old chesnuts) of women who are the victims of murder or sexual assault. As a whole, western society still loves to blame women for the actions of men.

Recently there was a guy on twitter who (in my opinion, rightly) was challenged for saying women need to stick together on nights out to avoid getting themselves attacked. Whilst many women will say 'yes that is common sense', but we have all just internalised that we are responsible for denying men the opportunity to attack, rather than western society as a whole looking to educate men and boys that it is their responsability not to attack. As someone else mentioned on here, Incels are a classic case in point: men going out and murdering people because they were not sexually successful with women, and often citing that these women were responsible for the actions these Incels because they refused to have sex with them. They don't blame the 'Chads' (the successful blokes), they blame the woman who dared to turn down their advances.

A lot of attitudes towards sex, and more specifically women's entitlement to enjoy sex and being in charge of consent, needs to change, and it needs to start at a much younger age than what sex-ed kicks off in this country. I pity young boys as much as I do young girls who will grow up trying to make sense of what they see on a screen versus what they are comfortable doing in the real world.

1 Like
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Gosig wrote:

Recently there was a guy on twitter who (in my opinion, rightly) was challenged for saying women need to stick together on nights out to avoid getting themselves attacked. Whilst many women will say 'yes that is common sense', but we have all just internalised that we are responsible for denying men the opportunity to attack, rather than western society as a whole looking to educate men and boys that it is their responsability not to attack.

As a small aside, when I was a teenager I got the absolute shit kicked out of me by a gang of lads (though the girls with them were laughing and cheering them on). I was walking home on my own one night just from a friend's house, and they spotted me and decided I'd be fun. They chased me down, knocked me to the floor, and just went at it until they grew bored.

And while I certainly don't think it was my fault for walking home alone in the dark, I personally would advise most people (male, female, and anyone in between) to stay safe at night. As much as we'd like to wish away criminals it's not going to happen any time soon, so be prudent. 👍

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Thanks for all your thoughts, folks - makes for a thought provoking discussion.

Ian Chimp - what an awful experience. Did you need hospital treatment? I hope the little shits got prosectuted, but I fear not.

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MsR wrote:

Ian Chimp - what an awful experience. Did you need hospital treatment? I hope the little shits got prosectuted, but I fear not.

To be honest it could've been worse. My head took a few kicks, and I got a broken nose, cracked ribs, and my kidneys also took a real kicking. It was over twenty years ago though, so no lasting damage (well, apart from my wonky nose and some small scars that are invisible unless I get a tan or shave my head 🙂). The one who knocked me to the ground got prosecuted as I could pick him out, and some of the others were taken to court, but as there were no witnesses there wasn't much to be done. They basically said that I couldn't say for sure who was doing what as I was curled up in a ball on the floor so didn't actually 'see' anything.

But, anyway, I digress.🙂

Would you give sons and daughters different advice?

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Ian Chimp wrote:

Would you give sons and daughters different advice?

I only have sons, so it is hard to say.

The eldest is just 14 (but 6'1 and fairly savvy: looks old enough for lads his own age not to try anything). We encourage them to be independent - they are used to getting themselves from A-B on the bus or metro but if it is after dark one of us picks them up or another parent offers.

The middle one was bullied and slapped walking round the corner from primary school to home a couple of years ago - there is a large high school is just up the road. I phoned the head of safeguarding at the high school and told him that if it happened again I would involve the police - he agreed with me! We gave my son some coping strategies - walking tall and confident. not making eye contact or engaging, pretending to be on his phone and, for a while, actually being on the phone to me for a few days as he walked, noting any identifying features of people approaching him. We figured that unless it all escalated he shouldn't be prevented from making a short walk home in the final year of primary school. Some of my friends said I should have picked him up in the car (the same friends whose sons still don't know how to fix themselves a sandwich for lunch!), but there were no further incidents.

They are only just beginning to have independent social lives. I suspect as they get older we will be less protective than we might if they were girls in terms of walking home alone - it might depend where they were! I don't think I'd be happy for a daughter to walk home alone at night - I'd probably pay out for a taxi (as you say, just a sad but realistic reflection of our society).

Our youngest has profound learning difficulties and is never - and will never be - left unattended. That in itself brings a whole different set of issues around consent, agency and safeguarding.

My husband would, I think, definitely be more protective of daughters but grew up with a very domineering father and is conscious of not wanting to repeat that pattern. Teenagers have to be allowed to be teenagers.

It's a really hard balance for parents to strike - I want them to grow up to be independent, confident, resilient and emotionally intelligent too. I'm not an over-protective 'helicopter parent', but I also want them to feel safe and to be sensible - not to take unwise risks - and to know that they can always turn to us for support.

I think the helpful themes coming out of this thread are the importance of self-confidence and resilience, consent, kindness and respect for others, and keeping oneself safe within society's structures. Those are hard things to teach young people - especially when it comes to sex and relationships, and it's a process which has to involve more people than just parents.

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Ian, sorry to hear that mate. I lost count of the amount of times I was beaten up with no help. They’re just gutless scum!.

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Ian Chimp wrote:

Gosig wrote:

Recently there was a guy on twitter who (in my opinion, rightly) was challenged for saying women need to stick together on nights out to avoid getting themselves attacked. Whilst many women will say 'yes that is common sense', but we have all just internalised that we are responsible for denying men the opportunity to attack, rather than western society as a whole looking to educate men and boys that it is their responsability not to attack.

As a small aside, when I was a teenager I got the absolute shit kicked out of me by a gang of lads (though the girls with them were laughing and cheering them on). I was walking home on my own one night just from a friend's house, and they spotted me and decided I'd be fun. They chased me down, knocked me to the floor, and just went at it until they grew bored.

And while I certainly don't think it was my fault for walking home alone in the dark, I personally would advise most people (male, female, and anyone in between) to stay safe at night. As much as we'd like to wish away criminals it's not going to happen any time soon, so be prudent. 👍

Just to clarify, as it seems some misinterpretation has taken place...I'm not suggesting that it is a great idea for women to walk about on their own late at night. The point I was raising was that a man felt the need to hand out advice to his female peers on social media on how they should protect themselves from rape, rather than using the post to remind his male peers about their responsibility to not rape in the first place. I was raising this as an illustration of the wider problem of women still being asked to alter their behaviour to avoid sexual violence rather than the focus being on reminding men not to commit these crimes in the first place.

1 Like
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Sorry Gosig, I didn't realise you were talking about a random guy. I thought you were referring to the recent story in the news about Nottinghamshire police advising women that walking alone at night may put them at risk (they got blasted by some for victim-blaming).

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/27/nottinghamshire-police-victim-accused-of-blaming-women-who-walk-alone

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Well, one thing this thread is showing is that violence against anyone is often linked with perpetrators having power over victims - with some horrendous examples from members of the forum and from the media. Heartfelt sympathies all round. And victim-blaming should be universally condemned in any scenario.

I started this thread because of a concern about violence in seemingly normal and everyday encounters - even if those encounters involve certain preferences which are understood in advance - and how we navigate this as partners and as parents. This is all more newsworthy because BDSM is considered more mainstream now (I'm not suggesting this a bad thing - I'm suggesting it might alter perceptions around consent and what is considered 'normal' in a relationship but especially on a casual date).

I think we all know about the importance of freedon and equality, and of respect and kindness and consent.

And I do understand that there is an etiquette around preparing for bondage and anal play with consenting partners.

My question is still what people do if they find themselves in a situation they are uncomfortable with, if the other person considers that situation 'normal' now. And how to teach teenagers of any gender to navigate these times.

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Interesting article in Grazia this week about the New Zealand case.

It showed the pictures of quite a few women who had been killed in a similar way and how often the men doing it were getting away with it (I think it said about 50%) who used the 'Fifty Shades' defence got away with it.

The last point made was of one case where the woman was extremely badly beaten and queried how she would have consented to those injuries (including a broken eye socket) and said that family and friends should give evidence and that the guy who killed her shouldn't have been believed as the dead woman couldn't testify.

I'd read the article quickly and my memory is not very good these days so I may have a few points wrong on it but bottom line is the sex gone wrong excuse is getting trotted out too often these days.

I don't think these killings have anything to do with kink or domination as any person here would consider it. Just my opinion but the kind of guys doing this are into pushing a partner's boundaries too far by shaming them by stating previous partners were into it etc. They have no interest in consent in the first place.

I brought my daughter up to be polite in every day circumstances but if she ever had a hint of a gut feeling that something wasn't right, to be downright rude. A firm (and loud if in company and needs be) NO straight to his face gets taken a bit more seriously by many of these types of guys (sadly, not all) rather than numerous polite excuses and sidling away.

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VR wrote:

Interesting article in Grazia this week about the New Zealand case.

It showed the pictures of quite a few women who had been killed in a similar way and how often the men doing it were getting away with it (I think it said about 50%) who used the 'Fifty Shades' defence got away with it...

I'd read the article quickly and my memory is not very good these days so I may have a few points wrong on it but bottom line is the sex gone wrong excuse is getting trotted out too often these days...

I brought my daughter up to be polite in every day circumstances but if she ever had a hint of a gut feeling that something wasn't right, to be downright rude. A firm (and loud if in company and needs be) NO straight to his face gets taken a bit more seriously by many of these types of guys (sadly, not all) rather than numerous polite excuses and sidling away.

Very good advice to give your daughter, VR. I wish I had had that sort of advice when I was growing up.

I'm bringing up sons and hopefully modelling and talking about female agency.

In terms of Fifty Shades, the books are not my thing but they seem to have brought more acceptance of some sexual preferences (a good thing) but also made pain and bondage during encounters normalised and even expected, (not a good thing). I'm sure other things have contributed.

I bought and like some of the 50 Shades range of toys, but feel a bit guilty about feeding a franchise which I wonder about in terms of whether the harm is has contributed is outweighed by the openness it has brought.

I hope that makes sense.

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Whilst i think some people can take BDSM too far, i think a lot of these cases are psychopaths using "Rough sex gone wrong" as an excuse for their murderous traits, they are criminals and will use any defence at their disposal. It really makes sense to only try BDSM with a partner you know well and trust implicitly. Never put yourself at risk.

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MsR wrote:

VR wrote:

Interesting article in Grazia this week about the New Zealand case.

It showed the pictures of quite a few women who had been killed in a similar way and how often the men doing it were getting away with it (I think it said about 50%) who used the 'Fifty Shades' defence got away with it...

I'd read the article quickly and my memory is not very good these days so I may have a few points wrong on it but bottom line is the sex gone wrong excuse is getting trotted out too often these days...

I brought my daughter up to be polite in every day circumstances but if she ever had a hint of a gut feeling that something wasn't right, to be downright rude. A firm (and loud if in company and needs be) NO straight to his face gets taken a bit more seriously by many of these types of guys (sadly, not all) rather than numerous polite excuses and sidling away.

Very good advice to give your daughter, VR. I wish I had had that sort of advice when I was growing up.

I'm bringing up sons and hopefully modelling and talking about female agency.

In terms of Fifty Shades, the books are not my thing but they seem to have brought more acceptance of some sexual preferences (a good thing) but also made pain and bondage during encounters normalised and even expected, (not a good thing). I'm sure other things have contributed.

I bought and like some of the 50 Shades range of toys, but feel a bit guilty about feeding a franchise which I wonder about in terms of whether the harm is has contributed is outweighed by the openness it has brought.

I hope that makes sense.

I know what you mean but I don't think there's any need to feel guilty - I honestly don't think that it's caused harm. If anything I'd have thought the popularity has enriched a lot of couples' sex lives.

Wish I'd followed my own advice, too. I'm old enough to remember it being commonplace to be groped at work or on a night out or by friends' fathers and have to laugh it off "like a good girl" or be humiliated by ridicule. I was also too polite to move when a stranger sat next to me on an empty bus and started rubbing his crotch through his trousers - looking through the window and ignoring him seemed like the only option back then.

Boy, would those guys have had it now! I think I'm as forceful as I am due to those experiences but I'd still be careful. Like I tell my daughter, it's a little better to play along if you're in the position where there's no one else around to help or houses you can knock doors of.

I've also told her that if she ever finds herself in a really dodgy position to try the old "do you mind? I'm an off-duty police officer" comment - but only when she's in dire straits and thankfully she's never been in bad situations. I'm lucky she doesn't drink as she drives everywhere but I still warn her about drink spiking and also told her "fire!" gets responded to a lot quicker than "rape!" ever does (I'm a nagging mum you may have noticed!).

I've also told her "fire!" gets responded to a lot quicker than "rape!" ever does.

The amount of times I was flashed, whistled at or have comments like "nice arse/tits" shouted at me by strange men was ridiculous. I understand the "lads" mentality of whistling or not too rude/personal comments on a building site as I was the only girl working with a load of men at one point (they were the types that would engage in the more "harmless" teasing and were more respectful than a lot), but I'm glad to see a lot of it being toned down these days.

It all comes down to the individual. If they're that way inclined they're going to do it. Educating our sons like you're doing goes a long way to stopping disrespectful behaviour but some men are just built in a way that they're going to at the very least push boundaries and at the most do real harm.