mr bjsp wrote:
if you are with someone who you care for and they dont or wont then you should not.
Unless all parties agree with full knowledge that they're ok with it, of course (I give big cheers to polyamory). :)
Lubyanka wrote:
Sunnydawn wrote:
Forgot to say-totally agree with Lubyanka.My hubby has lied so many times that I wonder what else he has lied about and I question him about everything.His job takes him away for months at a time which leaves me terrified, very depressed and my self esteem at an all time low.He gets mad because I don't trust him-always accuse him of cheating but it was his lies that have fed my insecurities.I feel I have been cheated on and I don't think I can get over it.He has also invested a lot of time into another woman when I was needing him-this nearly destroyed our marriage-was this cheating?I complain so but he disagrees.Luby-you guys sound amazing-hope you happy for a very long time:)
Wow, Sunnydawn, your story breaks my heart. That has happened to me so many times -
1. Partner lies to me
2. My trust damaged, I begin to query everything more insistently
3. Partner does annoying guilt-trippy "Don't you trust me?" and "You calling me a liar?" crap
4. Partner blames all our relationship issues on me for MY "trust issues" (i.e. how dare I not trust him)
4. Turns out partner was lying the whole time and blaming me for all of his shitty behaviour
It sounds like you're beginning to realise that you deserve much, much, much better. Of course he will disagree when you complain, it sounds to me like he's doing the typical passing-the-buck thing. If he's like the people I've encountered, he abdicates all responsibility and blames you for all his bad behaviour.
(whereas he takes credit for all his good behaviour, of course)
If he agreed when you complained, then he would actually have to acknowledge that he's doing something wrong. And if he fits the type I've encountered so many times, he will never acknowledge that, and will continue to describe you to others as the bad guy. And it sounds like you might have fallen into the habit of believing him when he says that. :/
If he's like the ones I've met, then he will take every occasional nice thing he's done for you, and throw it in your face as if you're being an ungrateful cow, when he really should be doing that kind of nice stuff for you all the time. Whereas you probably do nice stuff for him all the time and he hardly ever thanks you, I bet.
.
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I really appreciate your good wishes, Sunnydawn. I hope we're great together for a long time too. It isn't always easy. Just today he was hurling a lot of shit at me because he was feeling crappy. I realised this, and told him that speaking to me like that wasn't acceptable no matter how badly he was feeling. He went out for awhile, and when he came back he was feeling better. He brought me a cool portable external optical drive (really tiny, barely larger than a CD) and apologised.
I think it's a really, really good thing that he doesn't do that often enough to drown me in presents, because I can't think of any number of presents which would be worth that!
But occasionally, it's nice. :)
Oh, one more thing, I firmly believe that emotional betrayal and sexual betrayal are exactly the same thing, because both involve lies and deceit and damaging trust, so really, I think the damage done by both is the same.
itz like a 1000 word essay so bloody depressing
Totally agree with Lubyanka - as usual ;-) The lie is the problem as far as I am concerned: OH and I have an open relationship anyway, but we also have a rule about not asking if you don't want to hear the answer. Not a bad thing to remember! I've always been more concerned about emotional betrayal - a drunken shag on a business trip abroad usually means "I was drunk and horny" not "our relationship's doomed", but if my OH was confiding in someone else about stuff he didn't talk to me about (I mean things like fantasies, hopes, dreams, worries etc - not football...), that would bother me.
animal wrote:
itz like a 1000 word essay so bloody depressing
Hello animal,
If you find long posts depressing, then you might want to consider choosing to always skip my posts, because they are often long. You might want to consider trimming your quotes too, so that you yourself don't make such long posts for others.
Oyvez, my life Lubyanka babe your up early, but you com out fighting even now !!! that's consistent xx
You have a fabbie day.
Tallboy
englishrose wrote:
Totally agree with Lubyanka - as usual ;-) The lie is the problem as far as I am concerned: [...] - a drunken shag on a business trip abroad usually means "I was drunk and horny" not "our relationship's doomed", but if my OH was confiding in someone else about stuff he didn't talk to me about (I mean things like fantasies, hopes, dreams, worries etc - not football...), that would bother me.
Wow, englishrose, I had no idea you usually agreed with me, yay. :)
And I must admit, I have been quite surprised to note the overwhelming numbers of people in this thread who seem to assume an automatic connection between lust expressed with others and cheating. I mean, for me, as for you, the lie is the problem. Yet many of the situations described in this thread seem to me to be more about lying than they are about lust. And whilst the situations seem doomed by the lies, the lessons people somehow seem to gain from the experience is that lust is the criminal instead of lying.
If I were to base a relationship on my summary of what I thought were the majority of views expressed in this thread, I'd probably conclude something like this:
couple = sole possible relationship type available to me
lust-expressed-elsewhere = unforgivable crime
lies-deception-manipulation = normal, don't like but must accept
That seems so strange to me! It seems to me like people setting themselves up to fail.
I mean, let's have a relationship which is solely two people and excludes every other person on the planet, and let's make those two people sexual beings whose libido doesn't care about exclusivity, only about the best genes. And then let's tolerate lies and manipulation (which I think is the height of disrespect) and blame that behaviour on the lust expressed elsewhere.
When people express assumptions like "Oh, I should be all my partner ever wants and needs, if they love me", I must admit that bothers me a lot. I mean, does loving Chinese food mean one should only ever eat Chinese food forever? Can parents only ever love one child and not more? Where did we get this idea that "love" is something which runs out if there are more than two people involved?
Ok, putting away the soapbox now. :p
Personally even if it happened and my partner didn't lie, it would be a problem for me. So it's the act that's paramount. Lying only makes it worse for me.
imeldaimelda wrote:
Personally even if it happened and my partner didn't lie, it would be a problem for me. So it's the act that's paramount. Lying only makes it worse for me.
I agree that behaviour which is outside of the stated and negotiated boundaries is unacceptable. So if you'd agreed to have a sexually monogamous relationship, and your partner acted outside of that without your consent, and then was honest about it, I agree that honesty in that situation is completely unhelpful.
I consider that kind of behaviour to be included in deception - because you understood the relationship to be sexually monogamous, and your partner disregarded that without discussing it with you first and gaining your consent.
Does that help clarify my position?
I think its physical contact that I would class s cheating, unless you have permission from your partner. I have permission to be with a specific while hes away on his next tour, whether I go through with it is a different matter
xxx
Aye that makes sense. Personally I think I'd still like to be told asap, because at least then the relationship has a chance of recovering and healing.
I think the only reason why he's said this is because he knows I like this woman and it would give him something to fantasise about while he's away
xxx
imeldaimelda wrote:
Aye that makes sense. Personally I think I'd still like to be told asap, because at least then the relationship has a chance of recovering and healing.
I'm thinking it'd be even better if you were consulted before the event, rather than simply told afterwards, no? I think that discussion and working out an agreement before the event eliminates the need for any healing afterwards, since that prevents the wound in the first place.
I'm a huge fan of discussion and negotiation, especially before issues arise. :)
sexymel88 wrote:
I think the only reason why he's said this is because he knows I like this woman and it would give him something to fantasise about while he's away
Heh, yeah, I find that most straight men don't feel threatened by their woman partners being with other women, partly as you say because of the fantasy aspect for them, partly because I think that a lot of men assume that women's sexuality is more for his amusement than for their own (a view no doubt fostered by a lot of porn), and partly because I don't think a lot of straight men can conceive that women can bond in relationships with each other just as strongly as they can with men.
I hope you manage to get it together with her, sexymel88, I think it's about time you had some extra goodness coming your way. :)
Thankyou Lubyanka, it would be good if we did get together, and I know she wants it too, so I'll keep my fingers crossed and keep you all informed
xxx
Well it won't be OK at all, so dicsussion beforehand would only lead to the end of the relationship for me. I'm mongamist. Look all you want, but if you want to touch, then it's O.V.E.R. Discussion is good, but if that discussion was to lead to me saying OK on you go, well it just would never happen.
I just want to allow for mistakes of judgement with the talking about it if it did happen. Even then it would probably destroy things.
imeldaimelda wrote:
Well it won't be OK at all, so dicsussion beforehand would only lead to the end of the relationship for me. I'm mongamist. Look all you want, but if you want to touch, then it's O.V.E.R. Discussion is good, but if that discussion was to lead to me saying OK on you go, well it just would never happen.
I just want to allow for mistakes of judgement with the talking about it if it did happen. Even then it would probably destroy things.
I didn't mean discuss and then do, regardless of consent. What I meant was, if you'd had a discussion at the beginning of your relationship about monogamy, and your prospective partner was happy to commit to that, and then they transgressed, well of course that would be a deal breaker for me. But if you discussed monogamy early on and they couldn't promise that, then you have the choice to proceed or not, without having to base your decision on a transgression and a wound. And if they promised monogamy, and then felt the urge to stray, and discussed that with you before anything happened with it, then that too gives you choices which you can make without the pressure of transgressions and wounds.
I hear what you're saying - mistakes do happen to us all. However, some are easier to forgive than others, and some are a bucketload more painful than others. For me, it really, really hurts to find out I'd been lied to over a period of time, during which time I was usually blamed for suspecting, failing to trust, etc, etc, etc. I hate that. One of the things I hate the most about lies is that lies take away my ability to choose and informedly consent, and that is a huge deal for me.
I once broke up with a partner because after I gave my consent for him to be with another woman, he totally lied to me about what he did with her and when. I didn't understand why he felt he had to lie when he had permission!! Not only that, he blamed me for failing to consider his feelings, how hard it was for him to lie, and how difficult it was for him to come clean (after lying to me for two weeks). He wasn't able to cope with the fact that as the wrongdoer, the onus was on him to make it up to me. He couldn't take responsibility for himself and his actions, blamed me for everything, and that was just too much badness for me. We broke up shortly after that.
For me that was totally about the lying and not at all about the physical contact elsewhere.
Yeah all my relationships are based purely on monogamy, so to be honest, some of the issues you are raising aren't relevant for me. Cheating is a no no full stop and that's clear from the start. As we agree, the issue comes up if someone has cheated (and then lied or not) and what the aftermath of this is.
It's very sad that who you were with was not adult enough to deal with the situation. It's like he had his cake and ate it, but wanted even more.
Personally I can't work out how polygamy works, because I know it would never work for me. But it obviously does work for some people.
imeldaimelda wrote:
Personally I can't work out how polygamy works, because I know it would never work for me. But it obviously does work for some people.
Well, polyamory (polygamy is multiple marriage) works for us because kvetch has experienced that my relationships with others do not impact negatively on my relationship with him. He has always felt just as highly regarded and cared for and wanted and needed, no matter what I was doing with anybody else.
He wasn't sure about my being poly at the start, but he was willing to give it a go. Now he's glad when I have dates, he likes to drop me off and collect me afterwards, and he says it gives him a chance to get me out of his hair so he can get stuff done, heheh. :p And he really does get a kick out of me experiencing pleasure, no matter how I experience it or from whom.
So far he hasn't expressed any desire to go off with anybody else separate from me, he says he just doesn't have the time, which is a pretty fair assessment. :p I've told him I'm ok with it if the issue ever arises. We've had some amazing experiences with other people, together. :) There were quite a few issues to work through along the way, but those were really helpful exercises and we both knew ourselves better afterwards.
Glad it works for you.
A kiss would be enough for me to end a relationship.
Cheating in a relationship is just something i cant understand. The reasons are always pathetic
I suppose it depends if your talking about cheating, or having other partners within a relationship. different horses for different courses.