Does anyone still like them? Not in a 1930's "Please stay in the kitchen toots" or "AAAAHHHH a bear! RUN! YOU'RE a MAN. Fight it!"
I mean in a 'girly girl' way, pink, flowers, certain ways of dressing/wearing make up, cute, submissive to an extent etc.... And in a 'manly man' way. A natural protector, broad chin/shoulders, mostly dominant, into sports.
I know some people will really despise gender roles and I'm sure Lubyanka will show me the error of my ways but I'm just curoius as to how attractive some people still find them and what elements? Men and women do differ on the whole and as an ' individualist' (if thats a word ) I think it's important not to generalise but as a 'scientist' (a beleiver in science, not someone who can be arsed spending days watching a test tube) I do believe there are some elements of gender identites that on the whole men and women will find attractive and that they make evolutionary sense. On a human level we create social and cultural influences that also alter gender roles and we might find attractive for that reason.
So in no way am I saying all girls should be 'girly', I'm just asking does anyone find those roles attractive, what parts and why?
well i like to have a blokey bloke if you get what i mean, i want my bloke to be a man and not be girly in anyway. if anyone understands that lol.
i guess i have some old time views or are they just romantic maybe? i love a guy to buy me flowers and choclates and to take me out to nice places but then i do the same kinda things for the OH though i dont buy him flowers :P lol. but then when it comes to the home its got to be spilt 50/50 in my view.
when it comes to sex i like to be quite sub so i like the bloke takeing the lead and being in charge but at the same time i can be dom and make the first move and be in charge. i kinda think its all down to balance really.
not sure if any of the above makes any sense lol but ive tryed to answear :P lol
Yeah, im similar to D on this one, I love having a blokey-bloke!!
My ex was a total girl, refused to protect me when i felt threatened etc., he let people call me horrid names aswell and never said a word against them, and it was horrid, feeling unsafe and in danger and alone when you're with a so-called "partner". Whereas now, i know my OH will protect me and look after me when i need it.
And i like him buying me lil gifts and him taking me places too, but when it comes to chores etc, it should defo be evenly balanced.
Yeah, im similar to D on this one, I love having a blokey-bloke!!
My ex was a total girl, refused to protect me when i felt threatened etc., he let people call me horrid names aswell and never said a word against them, and it was horrid, feeling unsafe and in danger and alone when you're with a so-called "partner". Whereas now, i know my OH will protect me and look after me when i need it.
Ditto here too!
As for gender roles, its a very interesting topic to study in Psychology, I'll say that much.
Does anyone still like them? [...] I mean in a 'girly girl' way, pink, flowers, certain ways of dressing/wearing make up, cute, submissive to an extent etc.... And in a 'manly man' way. A natural protector, broad chin/shoulders, mostly dominant, into sports.
[some stuff about how girly girls and manly men are evolutionarily natural]
So in no way am I saying all girls should be 'girly', I'm just asking does anyone find those roles attractive, what parts and why?
This may possibly come as no surprise to you, but these gender roles leave me feeling a bit nauseated, since I cannot and will not do girly girl or submissive. I do enjoy protecting and caring for kvetch in social situations which he cannot handle (which is incredibly rare) and in other ways, and I enjoy kvetch making my life easier by monitoring the environment and keeping potential dangers away from me.
I have no issue with people who enjoy the particular gender roles you mentioned, WandA, they just appeal to me about as much as week old fish curled up and smelly in a bucket.
Evolution talk bothers me a lot because in nature we've got many birds and mammals in which the female is larger and does most of the hunting and gathering whilst the males pose around looking pretty, so evolution examples really don't do it for me. :p
Hmm, a pretty quick way of sussing I don't like someone is for them to make a judgmental comment about sex-appropriate behaviour and dress (sex, not gender, that's a whole nother kettle of fish!). If people feel comfortable acting in certain ways, that is up to them, of course. It's when one feels pressured to act or live a certain way because of one's genitals that it's fucked up, and I would steer very clear of anyone who perpetuated that. Unforch, it's all around us in the media etc. and for me, the best thing to do is to ignore it as much as possible and live the way I want to live regardless.
As I say, I don't have a problem with people expressing themselves in whatever way, but as soon as it starts negatively impacting on me or others (eg., big macho man patronising me as if I am less intelligent) it's not OK.
Also, in more subtle ways, the ingrained social roles that we have for men and women really do all of us a disservice. Because women are conditioned to try and hold relationships together and have a happy, harmonious home, it has been less easy for many women to speak out about domestic abuse, for example. And for men, it is still fairly unacceptable to show pain or grief, and so many bereaved or hurt men end up feeling very isolated.
I just think it's time that all of us live the way we want to, without imposing that choice on others.
Ooh, and. In a partner, people are mentioning things like 'protecting me/standing up for me when I'm in danger' as if that's a man thing only, and tbh, I'd hope that anyone I was with would stand up for me to the best of their ability. The same goes for consideration and gestures of love (not necessarily diamond rings, but doing thoughtful things for me). And that works both ways for me: I'd try and roughly balance the number of times they take me out to dinner and vice versa. Also, I hate having chairs pulled out for me and that kind of thing; maybe if I were in a full-time D/s type relationship I'd feel differently about that :) but I don't like being treated like a delicate flower because of, essentially, an accident of birth. So there :p
Yes, I have to say - I love em! I am an old fashioned woman who likes to look up to her man as the dominant, the protector and the master. I think its great, I have been in relationships like that and when theres love and respect the gender roles like this, to me (as a submissive) are wonderful.
I love to look up to a man and worship and adore him and be completely 'his', it seems to make the love shared and the sexual play all the more sacred and intense, but I do speak as a submissive with already old traditional values in place before the rest of it come into play. I love it and couldnt have it any other way, its just right for me. But I do speak as a submissive, I have had one relationship that I considered perfect in that way, and I hope to have another one day that is even better, will I get it, dont knw, I like the man to be my prince and me to be his slave princess, thats how my ideal partnership would work out - maybe one day, who knows what's around the corner.
I have a lt of friends who hate the idea of traditional roles even without the intimate side of things coming into it, but I cant relate to that because I am submissive, I love it and thats all part of who I am, wouldnt have it any other way
Ooh, and. In a partner, people are mentioning things like 'protecting me/standing up for me when I'm in danger' as if that's a man thing only, and tbh, I'd hope that anyone I was with would stand up for me to the best of their ability. The same goes for consideration and gestures of love (not necessarily diamond rings, but doing thoughtful things for me). And that works both ways for me: I'd try and roughly balance the number of times they take me out to dinner and vice versa. Also, I hate having chairs pulled out for me and that kind of thing; maybe if I were in a full-time D/s type relationship I'd feel differently about that :) but I don't like being treated like a delicate flower because of, essentially, an accident of birth. So there :p
I have been in lesbian relationships before and I'd still want them (and indeed they generally did) to 'defend' me etc- but maybe part of that is that i am always sub..?
as for the monetary/chores balance i dont see that as being gender dictated at all, me and my partner are a team so we split everything as often as possible- but esp now we're living together if one of us has cash and the other doesnt we'll just spend like it was both of our money in effect.
I have a blokey bloke too. But he knows i can stand on my own two feet at the same time. Hes there when i need him and knows when hes needed.
We buy each other gifts and are equal when out paying for things ie meals out etc. House work is generally left to me but thats my choice.
Thinking on it my x seemed more like the female in our relationship. He would start things when out with other blokes and i was left to jump in to sort it out. Seems wrong thinking on it now lol.
Interesting responses.... The bloke still beats the 'metrosexual' then? MMMMM steak, football and blowjobs....
Lubyanka I was essentially making the point that two differing personalities often compliment each other very well. Many couples will hold strengths as a unit they would not otherwise have. if people are dictated to by their environment as natural selection suggest then as long as we control our environment, then no one way of living can be determined more natural or successful than the other. I do not wish my statement to sound judgemental of others choices when I was simply trying to suggest I believe alot of people will, in one way or another, like certain aspects of the traditional gender roles.
I find science of huge interest but it's too rigid for me in practice. I would enjoy studying Psychology in more detail. I considered it for A-level but it all gets a bit too PC and 'sciencey' so I went for Philosophy! I do have some interesting source material though .
Lubyanka I was essentially making the point that two differing personalities often compliment each other very well. Many couples will hold strengths as a unit they would not otherwise have.
I appreciate that you were expressing your own preferences and not an edict on how you think everybody should be. :)
I think there are two elements to the section I quoted above which are unrelated to romantic partnerships:
The whole being greater than the sum of its parts is not limited solely to romantic partnerships but also includes human teamwork of any kind, and
Many human strengths rest solely on the confidence of the individual, and confidence may come from other sources than partnerships or teams
Also, as a polyamorous person, the term "couple" bothers me because it assumes that all romantic partnerships must be limited to being in groups of two. I know you didn't mean that, it's just one of those things which unthinkingly exclude me, like being asked as a Jewish person to fill in my "Christian name" on a form, which obviously I don't have.
Ok rant over, thank you for listening, I'll be here all week. :)
I'm quite interested in gender identities and stereotypes as I'm kind of a mishmash myself!
I'm a bit of a tomboy (think paintballing, ice hocky, breast obsession) so tend to have a lot more male friends because I have so much more in common with them. I also have more of a so-called "male brain" in that I tend to want to solve problems rather than talk about them, I bottle up my emotions, and I have no interest in handbags! I sometimes find female relationships difficult because aside from the lack of common ground my brain doesn't seem to work in quite the same way. I get very confused by the mind games, second guessing and bitchiness that seems to go on in girl-girl relationships and friendships. Mazybe I just I think I lack the feminine intuition that others are blessed with.
Having said all this there are somethings about me that are unashamedly girly - I like pretty underwear, I do a lot of floral photography and I use bambi eyes and a baby voice to get myself out of trouble!
I do all the cooking and most of the housework but mainly because I like my food and am a general cleaning busybody!
In terms of sub/dom...When I was with girls I was always more dominant but with my OH it's much more balanced. If anything now I'd say I more often take on a submissive role. Probably because my OH is stronger so it's harder to pin him down (I can just about manage it if I squeeze my thighs tight enough though!)
I do like my men manly, but with sensitive side. My boyfriend is a tall, tattooed, hairy chested guy (I LOVE that) into sports in a big way and I know he will protect me and look after me, I feel very safe with him.
My ex was a complete girl. In fact at the end of our relationship i'd actually started to call him Shirley. I don't know why, first name that came to me. He was also the most selfish person on the planet and spent more time in front of the mirror than I did.
I am a bit of a girly girl, I like my make up and wearing skirts and dresses, flowers and pretty lingerie, and I am submissive to an extent. However when my man tries to do what he thinks are nice thoughtful things for me, such as opening doors, carrying my shopping bags....I really don't like it. I get all defensive and tell him i'm capable of doing it myself. But then I think I shouldn't be like that because it is a nice thing - my ex used to leave me really struggling with loads of bags while he walked on in front.
I agree when it comes to homelife things should be equal. The arrangement we've got is I cook and he cleans, which suits me great!
I think we both are in touch with both our feminine and masculine side, which is great! I love cuddlin up on the sofa with a curry, some booze and a top gear marathon on the tele - good times!
For instance, my man is dominant over me and I love it. He tells me what to do and I'll jump straight to it, but when it my time of the month, he gets sympathy pains and we will cuddle on the sofa both watching chick flicks and scoffing down chocolate! :-D
I'm quite interested in gender identities and stereotypes as I'm kind of a mishmash myself!
I'm a bit of a tomboy (think paintballing, ice hocky, breast obsession) so tend to have a lot more male friends because I have so much more in common with them. I also have more of a so-called "male brain" in that I tend to want to solve problems rather than talk about them, I bottle up my emotions, and I have no interest in handbags! I sometimes find female relationships difficult because aside from the lack of common ground my brain doesn't seem to work in quite the same way. I get very confused by the mind games, second guessing and bitchiness that seems to go on in girl-girl relationships and friendships. Mazybe I just I think I lack the feminine intuition that others are blessed with.
Having said all this there are somethings about me that are unashamedly girly - I like pretty underwear, I do a lot of floral photography and I use bambi eyes and a baby voice to get myself out of trouble!
I do all the cooking and most of the housework but mainly because I like my food and am a general cleaning busybody!
In terms of sub/dom...When I was with girls I was always more dominant but with my OH it's much more balanced. If anything now I'd say I more often take on a submissive role. Probably because my OH is stronger so it's harder to pin him down (I can just about manage it if I squeeze my thighs tight enough though!)
I really relate to this! I am also a bit of a tomboy, love watching footy and the grand prix, love getting my hands dirty putting furniture together or helping my dad with the DIY, love playing sports (although I can't anymore due to joint issues.) I get on better with blokes than girls, struggle to have a "girly chat" and generally don't understand bitchyness and clickyness! Love chatting about footy and sports etc with "the lads".
However, I have long, blonde hair, wear make up everyday, have a shoe and bag obsession and look generally pretty girly. I also love pink and pretty things, love my man to be in control (to the extreme! I like him to make all my decisions and generally take care of everything like travel etc and I really love being "looked after") And would love to be a housewife, I really enjoy cleaning, washing up, organising, tidying and washing clothes (and although my poor shoulders can't take ironing I enjoy that too!).
I still want to be independant and have "me time" but in general, I love the "traditional gender roles" - I want to be the housewife and him to be the breadwinner although at one point my OH said he'd love to be a stay at home dad while I worked because I'm the ambitious one and that was fine by me too, I would just prefer something more traditional.
I don't necessarily want a big bulky strong man, but I want someone who can take care of me, I can't fix a PC or wire a plug and I want someone who can do all those things for me. I need a bloke with enough common sense for the two of us. Luckily my OH provides all that! We work (as a few people above have mentioned) as a team, I do the cleaning, he does the cooking, I remember the birthdays and organise him to sort family pressies, he makes sure my laptop is always running ok, and the best bit? I'm blokey enough to chat footy and help him do DIY and he's feminine enough to be understanding when I'm feeling crappy (and help clean!) and give me a very intuitive massage!
I don't think gender roles should exist, but for me, they do and they work well!
Ax
wow that was a bit of an essay, sorry External Media it's a very interesting topic!
Don't worry about the essay writing AdnaW as you can probably tell from my post I'm a bit of a chatterbox too and I agree it's a super interesting topic!
It's weird topic too because the feminist in me wants to rant and rave and burn my bra (well not burn my bra...I need the support lol) but I do feel a twinge of outrage when I think about the stereotypically female "duties". On the other hand I do in many ways naturally want to conform to the stereotype! I want to cook for my OH and clean his clothes and generally look after him, it doesn't feel like my duty as the woman or anything it's just my way of showing I care.
In rambling here I think I have discovered what for me the important point is: duty. If I was expectedto do the cooking and housework I'd have a problem with it but because I choose to, it's fine.
The way I think of it is that in the process of just existing there are a certain number of tasks that need to be done: finances, housework, gardening, DIY, cooking, moving heavy things etc etc. If you're in a couple someonehas got to do them so it makes sense to divide them according to a person's strengths and likes/dislikes. I'm not as scared of spiders so I'm the one who goes into the loft to fetch things but I'm also crap with computers so my boyfriend will fix mine, I can cook so I do all the cooking and my OH will carry my bags when they're too heavy. It's not really about what's expected of us in terms of our respective genders, we just share the work so it gets done quicker!
100% agree that gender roles shouldn't be required toexist but that they can work for well for some.
In rambling here I think I have discovered what for me the important point is: duty. If I was expectedto do the cooking and housework I'd have a problem with it but because I choose to, it's fine.
I think you've hit the nail on the head - it's nice to look after a person you care about, and for some people this means cooking/cleaning/washing etc. whilst for others it might be DIY/computers/finance etc. (or it might be something else entirely). Some people like to feel needed, others like to feel protected and I guess those two examples compliment each other pretty well....I am sure there are loads of other "types" of people, but this is a thread about gender roles so I'll leave it there.
Expectation should really only be applied to reasonable things, and even then, it isn't really fair to expect someone to behave a particular way, only to have expectations of yourself to leave/look someone who does/doesn't behave a way that you "need".
In rambling here I think I have discovered what for me the important point is: duty. If I was expectedto do the cooking and housework I'd have a problem with it but because I choose to, it's fine.
[...] Expectation should really only be applied to reasonable things, and even then, it isn't really fair to expect someone to behave a particular way, only to have expectations of yourself to leave/look someone who does/doesn't behave a way that you "need".
I think that expectations are only unreasonable if they haven't been negotiated and agreed upon. If expectations have been specifically and explicitly negotiated and consented to, I think those are reasonable, whatever they are.
In rambling here I think I have discovered what for me the important point is: duty. If I was expectedto do the cooking and housework I'd have a problem with it but because I choose to, it's fine.
[...] Expectation should really only be applied to reasonable things, and even then, it isn't really fair to expect someone to behave a particular way, only to have expectations of yourself to leave/look someone who does/doesn't behave a way that you "need".
I think that expectations are only unreasonable if they haven't been negotiated and agreed upon. If expectations have been specifically and explicitly negotiated and consented to, I think those are reasonable, whatever they are.
Yes you're right....in a way, there are some things I would never expect of my partner, I wouldn't expect them, but I would feel I had the right to at least ask him....maybe it's all down to definitions of words though. Even if my OH agreed to do/not do a certain thing, I wouldn't be angry with him if he changed his mind, it is his right to decide and only his....however if I had told him that said action was/was not acceptable to me (and he had agreed something based on this) and he chose to do/not do it then I would have doubts as to whether the relationship was ideal because he obviously hadn't considered my opinion on the matter.
I guess I expect things like respect from my partner, but in a way, I do not "expect" it of a partner, I just know that it is a condition of any relationship I have. Maybe that doesn't make sense - I hope it does.
